"did you give it a fair chance?"
Read your scriptures; go to church every Sunday; say your prayers every day; have faith.
We've learned in Sunday School that if someone does those things, all will be well. That's the simple version of the formula for a strong testimony. While any Mormon would tell you it is more complicated than that, it still somehow ends up being the pat answers given in church for just about any problem. On the flip side, if someone is "struggling," it must be because she failed in The Sunday School Answers, and should do better. If she does, her testimony will improve.
Someone once asked me if I gave the church's system, as listed above, a fair chance when I was in the process of leaving. That is, did I read scriptures, pray, and go to church? This is the answer I gave (with some minor changes):
You know I was an extremely faithful scripture-reader. Daily since before I was twelve [I was actually kind of a fanatic about it]. This changed only when my son was two and our housing arrangements forced us into the same room; it became much harder to do during that time, simply on a logistic level (lights out early). But I still read, just not daily. After coming back, my not-so-daily habit stuck. I kept up with that until things really started to break (after the "drowning in shallow water" and about the time of the "crumbling building"). Somewhere in there, I finished the Book of Mormon for about the 14th time, and decided to read D&C, because I hadn't read it since I was in 9th grade seminary. My trust and faith in Joseph Smith really wavered as I read D&C. Pretty much by the end, I felt that most of it was a document of man. When I went back to the Book of Mormon, I found it was actually painful to read, as I was considering the possibility that Joseph Smith wrote it himself. To paraphrase BH Roberts, was this a work of inspiration, or was this a wonder tale of an immature mind?
I think I gave the church's formula (of read the scriptures, prayer, attend church) a fair chance, as I did nothing but that for many years, and kept it up for a couple years while I read other stuff [scholarly publications on Mormonism]. What is more, there came a point near the end where I decided that that church's formula was not a perfect way of knowing. In fact, it was an extremely faulty way of knowing. I think it's a way for faith, but an emotional feeling cannot get at facts. I think that believing in God and other religious things is always a matter of faith. Religion is about devotion, faith, comfort, and explaining things we don't or can't understand. It is not about facts or truth. It doesn't need to be. I still find spirituality, comfort, and peace in religion. Even atheists can find this, in the right religion and outside of religion. But I don't find it in Mormonism. Mormonism's emphasis on its truthfulness, its emphasis on the (mythologized) "facts" of its past, get in the way of comfort, peace, devotion, and spirituality.
21 comments:
Cognizent in our previously discussed divergent premises, not wishing to inflame anyone's wrath and not seeking to be nit picky I still feel to mention things that came to my mind upon reading your post.
You start off with the following–-
Read your scriptures; go to church every Sunday; say your prayers every day; have faith.
We've learned in Sunday School that if someone does those things, all will be well. That's the simple version of the formula for a strong testimony.
To me this is an instance, whether intentional or not, in which a close semblance is actually a mighty aberration of truth.
Aside from being incomplete and simplistic, and despite it's tie to many statements made verbatim by those answering sunday school questions, I'd dare say that if the above is an accurate view of what you were taught was needed to keep a testimony strong then that would explain why yours has seemingly failed to some degree.
I'm reminded of the accounting Nibley does of the music student who "…in every conservatory of music there is the student who practices scales and exercises with dedicated zeal for eight or ten hours a day, or works away for months or years with terrifying persistence at a single piece. This is the devoted grind who impresses others by his matchless industry. But don't be fooled. This drudge is not working at all, he is running away from work, his ferocious application to dull routine is but a dodge to avoid the novel and frightening effort of using his head. And never never, for all his years of toil, does he become a real musician."
You see if your thought that 'reading the scriptures' 'attending church' 'saying prayers daily' actually did anything in and of themselves, with no effort or searching on your part, then you would have been merely one of many over the years that never actually applied the gospel. Like the grind described you had the appearance of a great student. Yet you never really would have entered the depths of the 'music' of the gospel. To me it's no wonder you woke one day to the inanity of your routine. Prayer, claims of faith, reading the scriptures and attending church meetings are as hollow as Mosaic sacrifices and offerings if there never mental corrolaries to the process.
The sad thing is is that I know that your experience is not so unique with regard to your perception. It's not just 'read' but study, search and ponder on the scriptures. Of course they seem hollow if you never are probing their depth. This is the same thing with all the peers I had in school that thought any number of subjects was boring or uninteresting. They were the very ones who may have spent more time doing their homework but less time acutally pondering about what they were doing, why they were doing it, and what it meant.
I think it's sad. Profoundly sad. If that's your perception of all you needed to do then I'm very sad that such a distortion was passed on to you.
Joseph Smith Jr., as is reported by his mother, was the least inclined of all his siblings to read the Bible, but he was the most inclined to ponder upon what he'd read.
I especially like the quote, a gem--if I may say so, here--
Thy mind, O Man, if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation must stretch as high as the utmost heaven, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss. Thou must commune with God.
--Joseph Smith Jr
That soul to be led to salvation would not disclude one's own. The utmost heaven and the darkest abyss.
I pray that your ponderings lead you to salvation and ultimate happiness, regardless your present stance on the world and things.
Hey Ashes! You got some (super nice) haterade! Woo-hoo!
Hiveradical - Dude, go back and read the blog. It's pretty clear that there was a lot of pondering, and not just practicing. Anyway, I remember general authorities talking about how, if a person doesn't have faith, going through the motions can create it. I'm sure someone who studied more than I could give you a direct quote.
Ashes - I'm reading "The Fellowship of the Ring" right now, which I find way more uplifting and inspiring than the BoM. There's an awesome line that knocks the wind out of me every time - it's when Frodo volunteers to take the Ring (it's in the movie, too - I think word-for-word): "I will take the Ring," he said, "though I do not know the way." That has nothing to do with anything, except that it's SUCH a great line.
Rebecca,
I mean no beligerence and I'm not feigning to know Ashes' situation or experience. I'm just saying that in my perception of the manner and substance which she's presented it leaves plenty of space for some elements of which I've mentioned and a vast discrepancy from my own experience.
Ultimately it's between us as individuals and God.
I'll give Ashes credit though, she's consistant in her stance. Unlike many she doesn't try and hedge bets but rather extends her conclusions across the board. I think that is a virtue many who leave our particular faith lack.
Kind of ironic that those who seem to hold on to the most integrity upon leaving the church are those who go the way of the agnostics and/or atheists. I believe by her adhering to a consistant model she avoids a 'lukewarm' designation and, for whatever it's worth, is far more honorable than others on a relative scale. Again ultimately it's nothing I have any true capacity to discern on any ultimately meaningfull level.
This is why I have to laugh whenever the steps described in Alma 32 (and related means of gaining a Mormon testimony) are equated with the scientific method or otherwise described as a sure-fire means of obtaining Truth.
A theory that cannot be disproven in any contingency is not scientifically valid, and its relevance (let alone accuracy) is highly suspect. Simply put, there is no possible outcome upon which the LDS theory that "read + ponder + pray + obey + sincerity = testimony" would admit falsification.
The paradox is that it is considered completely legitimate for an investigator to read 3 Nephi 11 and Moroni 10:3-5, pray with sincerity once or twice, and on the basis of those efforts alone gain a testimony that will guide all subsequent life decisions. This is considered good support for the theory. Yet, how do we then explain the life-long member who has read, pondered, prayed, and remained in all aspects a sincere and faithful member for years or even decades, but has never obtained a satisfactory testimony or spiritual witness?
For the theory to hold, it must be assumed that somehow, in some way, failure to achieve the desired result is always the member's fault. There is no other explanation, because it would be intolerable to suggest that the seed itself was bad, or even that the seed may be fine for some people but toxic for others. Either the "experiment" was done incorrectly (i.e., more sincerity/pondering/faith/obedience was required) or more time or repetition is required. In the eyes of the true LDS believer, there is no point at which you could legitimately say that the experiment has failed to yield the promised results. Not even if you were the prophet, not even if you had been a fully active, sincere, and commandment-keeping member for 90 years.
Even if we discard the idea that religious notions should (or can) be subjected to scientific methodology, this should raise a serious red flag.
Hive- Yep, you totally missed my point. Of course I found the simple list of 4 things to be too simplistic, even when I was a member. And yet, that is what came up in Sunday school so often. "Feeling depressed? You aren't reading your scriptures daily, are you?" The idea was if you weren't doing the simple things, the rest wouldn't even matter to building up the testimony.
And how is us becoming atheist/agnostic ironic?
But I'm not here to argue that with you. My actual point was that the church's way of knowing (as _simplified_ above) is faulty.
After I stopped going, another friend asked me, "Have you prayed about it?" I answered, "Of course I haven't prayed about it!" That system doesn't work. Praying about it is the way _within the system_. I was outside of the system, and could see that the only thing prayer every gets anyone is a moment of pondering, self-reflection, and fulfilled societal expectations of what that prayer should achieve. Just my opinion, of course.
Rebecca- It's it great that we can, even in our sinful state, still feel that wondrous spirit in books, movies, art, drama, and music? ;) I really like the Lord of the Rings too. Some people think that Frodo's fancy elvin-made chain mail shirt (I can't remember the name of the special metal right now) represents garments! What do you think?
Abner- The model is broken, you're right. A believer can always backpedal, finding a way to keep the model even when it doesn't work. The consequence is that people like you who never felt that testifying spirit feel bad about yourselves, instead of questioning the model. (Good job on questioning the model.)
Hive- I seems like you make the assumption that I contain my entire sense of the gospel and the entire reason for my leaving in each and every post, self contained.
Take Rebecca's advice, and go back and read my pre-exit and exit stories; get a better idea of who you are criticizing here.
Oh, yeah, the chainmail shirt thing is for sure a representation of the garments. And not at all a version of something that already exists (chainmail armor stuff), but made better and more powerful by a fantastic race (Elves? Dwarves? Whatever) in a FANTASY novel. These themes go way on back to before Christianity. Except that, yeah, garments. It must be. Because everything - IN THE WORLD - comes back to Mormonism. Geese? Like the Holy Ghost, they know when to stay and when to fly away. Hair? Like God - you can cut it completely off, but it will grow back if you let it. You can pretty much read anything into anything if you try hard enough. Have you read chanson's book, "Exmormon"? There's a GREAT (in a really terrible way) analogy in there about sex and donuts.
Oh! And we can't forget about the Jews! Mormons are JUST LIKE the Jews! Because they're the only two religions to ever have an extermination order against them (except that I'm pretty sure that's WRONG)! Because Missouri? EXACTLY like the Holocaust. Totally comparable.
Ah, but don't you see, Rebecca? Everything hails back to Mormonism because Mormonism is _totally_ the original religion from the Garden of Eden, and then people have just corrupted it in the 6000 years since then. So you can still see remnants in Egypt, China (there's actually a picture from ancient China showing a god and goddess holding the compass and the square--I'm serious!), Africa. And fantasy novels. Mostly fantasy novels.
And how about those of us who prayed fervently, with real intent, having faith in Christ, for an answer that the church is really true, once doubts crept in? I prayed, and really sincerely wanted the church to be true. I actually wanted the answer to be that it was true.
So why didn't such an answer come to me? God himself knows how much I needed and wanted the answer to be that it's true, right? If it were true, and my salvation and the salvation of my family hinged on that knowledge, then why would a loving God leave me hanging? Why?
UNLESS THERE IS NO AFFIRMATIVE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION.
Personal revelation rocks.
SML- Okay, so I'm stupid and was reading your comment on my gmail (it emails me all the comments) and responded there. But of course, it doesn't go anywhere, so the comment was lost. Argh.
Here it is in part:
SML- Exactly! That system of knowing is just broken. And yet, a Mormon answer would still continue to say you are wrong, you didn't have enough faith, God is just testing you.
If you make the system non-falsifiable, you can always explain away why you didn't get an answer. Until you realize that the whole exercise is just an inaccurate way to get at truth.
For example, take the dragon in my garage. Oh, you don't see him? Well, he's invisible. You can't hear him? He's mute. He doesn't leave any damage from his fire-breath? He was de-firebreathed in the pet store. What pet store sells dragons? Special ones. Where? I lost the directions. I'll google it. Oh, it burned down last week (all those dragons, you know!). etc etc
Congrats, SML, on calling the bluff.
:) Thank you. I am much happier now, truly. Even if I'm still trying to find those new things that make me happy.
And how about those of us who prayed fervently, with real intent, having faith in Christ, for an answer that the church is really true, once doubts crept in? I prayed, and really sincerely wanted the church to be true. I actually wanted the answer to be that it was true.
So why didn't such an answer come to me? God himself knows how much I needed and wanted the answer to be that it's true, right? If it were true, and my salvation and the salvation of my family hinged on that knowledge, then why would a loving God leave me hanging? Why?
UNLESS THERE IS NO AFFIRMATIVE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION.
Personal revelation rocks.
This will be a rough answer to the essense of the criticisms labeled thus far.
Any test they eventually find for super-string theory, the present best candidate for a unified field theory--it's the one that mathematically ties together the laws of quantum physics with the laws of general relativity, I very much doubt will be an item that will be very forgiving in terms of discernment and ultimate verification. The irony with this search for a theory of everything is that, although the math is working out great, the math may prove forever beyond the grounds of either verification or falsification. Thus the cutting edge of physics, as it stands now, may have the very same dillema you are all presenting for the question of God and personal revelation.
I think it's fascinating that both physics and theology are reaching similar impasses. Yet the theoretical physicists keep plugging away at their equations and spending vasts amounts of research on forever larger supercoliders in the mere hope that they might be able to take even a tiny part of this theory beyond the realm of theory and into bonafide science.
My question becomes then, how long do we look? How many resources do we pour into this? How many generations does humanity spend trying to uncover something that we cannot even be certain will ever be uncoverable under our own power? Just like those who mock religious adherents for their broad scope and never ending questioning of their own application and time passage permitance in the pursuit of either an affirmation or nullification of their doctrine.
So yeah, things could go on forever, we could perpetually question the adherence to the true principles our efforts are achieving. But what is ultimately lost? I've found affirmation. But even for those who have not, what would they loose if they spent their whole lives in search for it? Would they loose any more than the Theoretical Physicist who spent his whole life seeking to push back a veill he was not even certain was removable? And with physics being the ultimate physical explanation for anyone utterly rejecting the physical there comes the question of ultimate significance. If this all has no meaning and is merely happenstance hicup in the momentary entropy imbalance in this segment of existance then what meaning is any of your complaints or decrying of the LDS faith? If the faith we adhere to is silly and non-sensical what makes any of your doings more so?
Truth be told every human's construct has a foundationally subjective core. You can ignore it all you want. But if you are correct then we are all ultimately merely whisteling in the dark, and neither of us is any better or worse off than the other, especially if our perceptions of our own acts are all that count for the brief time anything can count.
When I said "rejecting the physical" I mistyped. It was meant to be "rejecting the spiritual"
Hiveradical - The point of the "complaints" and "decrying" is to get through what a lot of people see as a betrayal. To talk with other people who have been through the same thing, or who might understand. Not too many of us are actively trying to convince people OUT of their faith (I don't actually know ANY who are doing that). So why are you here trying to convince Ashes out of hers (and just because she doesn't have faith in religion doesn't mean she doesn't have faith in anything)? And don't say you're not - it's plain as the pretension on your face that you are.
Also, I promise I'm not trying to be mean, but (there's always a "but," so maybe I AM trying to be mean) the rest of us out here are kind of rolling our eyes at how high your opinion of your own brain seems to be. Just because you're using your hundred-dollar words doesn't mean you're doing well in this debate. Because FYI - it's not a debate. Ashes isn't trying to convince anyone, and I don't know about her, but I'm kind of irritated (in the way that a broken neck is kind of a hindrance) that you come on here and try to negate everything she's saying. It's one thing to point out an honest mistake, to disagree (nicely), or try to understand something that's unclear to you, but it's another to try to win a marathon by boxing.
Ashes - Sorry to hijack your comments with something so off-topic. If you're totally okay with the pseudo-debating then I'll just shut up about it. Actually, I'll probably shut up about it anyway, because that's not what I'm here for.
Hiveradical, physics means nothing to me. I was merely pointing out that when I fervently prayed, as a faithful member, about the truthfulness of the gospel, I got no answer at all. And I needed an answer. I needed it, and God knew this. It wasn't a test of having faith. I had faith that it was true. And then facts and truth about the origins of the church crept in, and I wanted to know for real if it were still true, when all evidence pointed otherwise.
I still ask, IF there is a loving God, why would he leave me hanging with no answer that it is true? To me, this was my answer. A loving God wouldn't leave me hanging. I can appreciate the comfort you find in your own "knowledge" that the church is true. I hope you can appreciate the comfort some of us find in jumping off the hamster wheel of Mormonism to lead our own quality lives for a change.
HiveRadical,
I understand that from a believer's perspective, life as a member of the church seems like "a great way to live," even without a testimony. I even agree to some extent, because you can do a lot worse in this world than living la vida Mormon. However, and this is where I'll probably lose you, I believe you can also do a lot BETTER.
First of all, it's pointless to stick around trying to believe when you've already seen the proverbial man behind the curtain. As William James said, "'The will to believe' cannot be stretched as far as that. We can make ourselves more faithful to a belief of which we have the rudiments, but we cannot create a belief out of whole cloth when our perception actively assures us of its opposite. The better mind proposed to us comes in that case in the form of a pure negation of the only mind we have, and we cannot actively will a pure negation" (The Varieties of Religious Experience).
Secondly, Mormonism does not have a patent on family togetherness, service, health, charity, spirituality, joy, happiness, or success. In fact, the only things it could be said to have a patent on are things I don't agree with.
I'm trying to think of a simple way to explain this. Imagine, if you can, that you no longer believe that the church has any impact whatsoever on your eternal destiny. Imagine that you believe Joseph Smith was, at best, a pious fraud. Imagine that you do not believe the leaders of the church have any special insight into the will of God. (Or if you prefer, simply imagine that you do not believe in God or the afterlife in general, so it doesn't seem like I'm picking on Mormonism specifically.)
Now explain to me why you would want to...
- Attend a church and socialize with people who consider dialog with a skeptic, intellectual, feminist, or liberal to be just about as desirable as hanging out with a leper.
- Spend the majority of every Sunday and several hours during the week attending meetings to discuss things that are boring, counterproductive, or irrelevant to you.
- Read daily out of supposed works of scripture that scream "19th century production" from every page.
- Pray privately and in public to a deity you do not believe exists (or may exist, but for whatever reason, does not hear or answer prayers).
- Support socio-political stances you disagree with, both current and historical (racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc.).
- Raise your children in a faith you do not share, allowing them to absorb teachings you find to be laughable at best, toxic at worst.
- Participate in religious rituals that are said to be the highest form of worship, but seem pointless and absurd.
... when instead you could...
- Belong to communities that value your intellectual contributions and highly esteem skepticism, doubt, and free inquiry.
- Spend Sundays however you wish, whether in quiet meditation, at a church service that suits you, recreating, or simply resting.
- Dedicate free time during the week to personal hobbies and family.
- Enjoy coffee, tea or alcohol in moderate amounts.
- Donate time and money to organizations that believe in financial accountability and work for socio-political causes you believe in.
- Spare your children (especially daughters) years of needless guilt, fear, and superstition
- Pursue spiritual paths that are meaningful and fulfilling to you.
Even if you could disregard the negative aspects of the LDS lifestyle, the opportunity cost alone would be incredible. Just think of all the wasted time, wasted money, misplaced priorities, experiences you could never have, friends you would never make, conversations you could never enjoy, thoughts you wouldn't dare to think.
That, in a nutshell, is the problem with sticking with Mormonism when you no longer believe, simply because it is "a great way to live." If you don't believe, it is more like "a great way to live in prison."
I LOVE what Abner Doon wrote here. My thoughts exactly.
HiveRadical said: "Truth be told every human's [sic] construct has a foundationally [sic] subjective core."
Amen. But that doesn't mean life is meaningless (that we're just whistling in the dark) or that every way of living is equally as fulfilling and valid. And you're comparing a dragon myth to physics? And physics to JS's claims? Please.
from Hive's comments, I was feeling like maybe I wasn't making myself very clear in posts. Then Rebecca, Abner, and SML dropped by and helped me see they do understand what I'm saying, and they do understand me. Thanks guys!
Rebecca- You are right; I did not create this blog to debate about Mormonism. There are forums for that. I have specifically avoided giving a full list of things that I find to be evidences against JS's claims, etc., because I know people would just swoop down and try to convince me I'm wrong. I didn't create it to convince anyone I'm right or that they should think or act like I do and did.
I created it to work out my thoughts. Now, if someone disagrees with my thoughts because they have had a different experience than me (like, um, everyone), they can feel free to explain how they see things differently. Hopefully, that kind of dialog with help me push my envelope of thinking, too.
SML- I really like the "jumping off the hamster wheel" idea. I prefer to get my exercise elsewhere. :) BTW, I did have that "witness of the Spirit"--a warm fuzzy and a nice thought in my head that told me what I wanted to know. Where did it come from? Me and my culture. Period. You weren't missing out on much.
Abner- You summed it up really well, man. Thank you. And, realizing that you _do_ live that life...I'm so sorry. It will end!
Oh, excuse me, my list of "essentials" was too short, according to Elder Packer's latest:
"You will be safe if you look like and groom like and act like an ordinary Latter-day Saint," President Packer said. "Dress modestly, attend your meetings, pay tithes, take the sacrament, honor the priesthood, honor your parents, follow your leaders, read the scriptures, study the Book of Mormon and pray, always pray. An unseen power will hold your hand as you hold to the iron rod."
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