weird
A friend of mine told me he didn't find Mormonism that weird. Even polygamy doesn't seem that weird, since exists in most of the world and in the Old Testament.
Then I told him about the secret handshakes and the temple robes.
He was speechless.
"If you think Mormonism isn't weird," I told him, "it's just because you haven't heard enough of it yet."
10 comments:
I agree with you in one way. I think any religion is "weird" if you look at it in a clinical, intellectual manner or if you point out specific parts of its practices independent of any explanation. Example: Jews do WHAT to their little boys' WHATS? Now, sure, that's an extreme example. Here's a less extreme one: "I walked into the church and they were all chanting in this weird monotone like they were in a trance." Wow, that would creep most people out if you didn't explain you'd just walked in on a Methodist service where they generally read a prayer together from their hymnal. You could even point out the weirdness of, say, blogging under an assumed name. No, I'm not trying to take a shot at you, I'm just saying that most things viewed in the wrong light can appear weird. If your friend said he didn't think it was weird, why disagree? Did it need to be said? This all goes back to my question of why people who leave the church have to make parting shots as they go. If you want out, I personally think it's better for you to be out than to stay in and live a lie. I truly believe that a lot of members share that opinion.
I think I am coming off as negative, so I'm stopping here. If I seem out of line, my apologies.
robert- It's true that a lot of ritual is weird. But even in context, the signs, tokens, names, and oaths (granted, no longer around) are still weird. This friend is quite well-versed in religion of all stripes, as he is trained as professional clergy.
Perhaps I was taking a "parting shot" at Mormonism. So? I'm generally even-keeled, nonplussed, nice. Sometimes I just need to say something out of the ordinary, get out of my shell, push the boundaries. Experiment with who I am. I imagine that eventually, I'll feel no desire to say things like that anymore. But for now, I'm getting them out of me--mostly on my blog and with a few friends, rather than at my family.
Another question I've posed to various people without any adequate response: why is it acceptable in society to openly deride the Mormon religion, but to do anything of the kind to Jews or maybe Buddhists would be considered terrible? It's seems hypocritical in the modern "politically correct" world.
Take your parting shots, though, I guess. I just don't know that it's helpful any more than harboring ill will towards an ex lover. It only hurts the person who is harboring the pain in the end.
I had a friend say the same thing after watching the pbs doc. I elaborated on a few topics, and his opinion changed fast too. In fact he has no issues with polygamy as he puts it, "human beings are the only monogamus beings on the planet".
I suggested he move to Colo. City and see if he can convert.
Robert my friend,
Back down off of FtA, would you? I find it fascinating to see you commenting on all sorts of ex-Mormon blogs, (which tells me you must actually find them fascinating) and this is the first time I've seen you say such pointedly critical things to someone. Tsk tsk tsk.
I expect better of you, a worthy priesthood holder, I really do. ;)
By the way, Robert...why do you feel it's helpful to take your own shots at FtA for taking parting shots upon leaving Mormonism?? Seems rather funny.
Robert- regarding your ex-lover comment, I will quote Runtu. I hope he doesn't mind:
"One of my favorite FAIR/MAD apologists once said that leaving the church was like getting a divorce. She said it was ridiculous for the one ex-spouse to be obsessed with the other, constant badmouthing him or her to anyone who would listen. Wouldn't it be healthier, she suggested, if we just got on with our lives and stopped talking about the other spouse?
Of course, what do you do if your ex-spouse wants to get back together and calls you every day, shows up on your doorstep, sends gifts and cards, and constantly hounds you to take him or her back? Furthermore, what if your ex-spouse has convinced your entire family and all your friends that you are the one at fault (you did something wrong or selfish or sinful), that if you'd just change and be humble, the two of you could make things work? And what if all your friends and family, believing in the ex-spouse, work hand in hand with the spouse to attempt to get you two back together?
Would you move on with your life, or would you get a restraining order?"
About your PC question: I've asked the same question. It's true that it's not PC to disparage Judaism, but people say all sorts of stuff about Mormonism, Scientology, JWs, Hare Krishnas. I think that, specific to Jews, the answer is pretty obvious why we don't feel it's PC to criticize. I think all religion should be open to criticism, personally. Just because we belief something religiously, or do something weird for religious reasons, shouldn't mean it's above rational criticism. In the conversation with the friend, we went on to academically discuss how Gnostic in nature the temple secrets are, and the connections to Masonry. It wasn't a "let's bash Mormons" session, by any means.
I think Hinckley is trying pretty hard to get Mormons to look more mainstream, and sweep under the rug all those things that make Mormons look crazy and weird. Even some things that have been taught as doctrine for many years.
Which is making a lot of people scratch their heads.
AZ- I can accept that some people choose polygamy out of the range of marital/co-habitation options available; I say, let them do so. However, it is usually not that case that people freely choose it. Rather, they are raised in it, taught that it is the only way to heaven, etc., and no other way of life. It's sick.
Well, I am intrigued myself by this notion of "parting shots." It doesn't really make any sense if you think about it. It's a little controlling. I mean, you realize the church is not true and decide to leave and you are expected to suddenly zip your lip and slink away. Why is that, exactly? And I don't think your "ex-lover" comment holds any water at all. If an ex-lover, in whom you had completely trusted and confided and given all your loyalty, was found to have lied from the get go, deceived you, used you, manipulated and controlled you--then you might want to have a thing or two to say about it. Even in the case of mutually agreed on separation, if the relationship was intense and all-encompassing (as it is in most of the cases of church/member 'divorce' that I know of--especially for people like fta and others who are BIC), then it's painful and wrenching to move out of it. It requires processing, it requires feeling the feelings, talking about it, thinking about it, mulling it over, being angry, being sad, measuring the cost, measuring the loss, working through the implications of the experience, integrating into your personality and psyche before finally being able to move on.
Frankly, I don't know anyone who didn't go through periods like this after divorce or break-up with a lover or partner--especially if the relationship had been long-term or particularly intense. Frankly, I would worry about the emotional well-being of someone who could walk away from a relationship like that without any sort of "parting shot" (so-called) that you are so disdainful of.
And as far as it only hurting the one who harbors the pain--well, that's kind of redundant. Of course the one who harbors the pain is hurt. Doy. But you're actually wrong about it being damaging (which is what I think you were trying to say. In fact, I think it's a healthy part of a process that people go through with such a large loss.
On the other hand that it doesn't "hurt" the other party (ie the church) that people leave and are in such pain over the loss--well, if one party in an individual relationship demonstrated the kind of apparent indifference to and contempt for the pain that people who leave the church go through, I guess I would have to call them sociopathic--or at the very least lacking in any kind of healthy empathy. And frankly, whether the church, in its arrogance, wants to acknowledge it or not, the slow bleed of very bright, talented, dedicated, and--yes--faithful members of the church over principles, does in fact damage the institution.
In any case, your analogy breaks down rather completely and rather quickly. And the sort of snotty tone of "take your parting shots" is just dismissively contemptuous and I think fta deserves better.
All that said, I tend to agree that Mormons seem to be fair game in today's PC world and I have actually read calls by religious scholars speaking to those within the world of religious scholarship to knock it off--that mormonism gets treated in ways even within that venue that would not be directed at other faiths. Even I, as a vile apostate (albeit one with some vestiges of tribal loyalty left) sometimes bristle at the kinds of comments I've heard made. On the other hand, mormons also tend to get a lot of fawning press as well, especially lately. So, you know, it's just the way of things. It seems to me the church and members of the church need to mature on this issue. No one is going to get fully 100% good press 100% of the time--and frankly, no one should. I am especially thinking of the recent PBS special. I read a lot of the believing response to the special and frankly most of it was just crazy. People were vilifying faithful, active members of the church in good standing who appeared on that program as "anti-mormon" because they were honest and didn't give the correlation-approved version of things and were freaking out that all they talked to were "anti-mormons" when in fact it was something like 70% believing mormons that were presented on the show. There is behavior toward "the church" in the media and the world in general that is unfair and there is lots--LOTS--that is perfectly fair, balanced and positive. Mormons need to stop getting their undies (as it were) in a wad just because their own best sense of themselves isn't what is presented 100% of the time. (And honestly, that "best sense of themselves" is very often a sort of group self-delusion about how "good" they all are as compared to anybody else).
And finally, I also agree with you that all religion is weird.
My second response was misunderstood. I was not saying it dismissively in my intent. One of the downsides of blogging. I was honestly meaning "I can see where you're coming from, do that if you need to." I've been in a bad break up where lots of parting shots were made, and in the end I realized the ones I made only really hurt me. That was where I was coming from. I did, in my initial comment, apologize if I came off as negative. I have written with fta a couple of times discussing the issue of people who leave the church wanting to attack it. In my experience reading this blog, rarely have I seen those sorts of comments, and I greatly appreciate that fact. If you read other comments I have made here, you can see I have been very supportive of her desire to leave. I truly think someone should leave and make their desire clear that they want out if they feel it is wrong. I have said as much before. My only point in the second comment was to say "if you must take them, then do so, but I think it hurts you more than it hurts the church." Maybe that does not make sense to anyone else, or maybe you all think I am not speaking the truth when I say that. Here's a common expression SML will recognize from me: take it for what you will. I am an honest person, and I hate lying.
To SML, and this is not a snide remark: if you would prefer I stop commenting on your blog or other ex-Mormon blogs, let me know. I do not do so to offend anyone. I started writing on FTA's blog to be supportive because I could see similarities in her leaving her church to me leaving my old church. In my case, though, I never made any parting shots because I do not have any hatred for it. I have been somewhat shocked by the treatment some of my "friends" have given my wife or me, but life goes on. My only intentions here have been to be supportive. I sincerely apologize for the misunderstandings caused by these recent posts.
Aw, Robert. I don't wish for you to stop commenting on my blog or other ex-Mormon blogs. I think you know this. I was reacting to what seemed like unusual judgementalness coming from you, because I've never seen it before. I'm glad you came back to clarify.
Besides, you have a few jokes rattling around in you that need to be set free, right?? Feel free to pop on over to my blog and share all you want. I welcome your comments.
Belaja, I really love the way you word things. I wish I could be half as articulate and make points as well as you do. I enjoy reading your stuff so much.
Thanks, SML. I really did not expect this backlash. I was in no way trying to attack anyone. Take care, everyone.
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