Thursday, July 26, 2007

past dealings

I'm now in California, staying at my in-laws place. They are not here yet, so we have the house to ourselves. Besides unpacking and settling in, then, I'm steeling myself against the inevitable Mormon/ex-Mormon clashes. Like my family, my husband's family has been pretty good. As far as the siblings go, his has been far, far better, in fact.

I have nothing to base my trepidations on other than past behavior of my mother-in-law. And since past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior...

Incident 1: When I was still quite devout, Jack Mormon brother-in-law and his never-Mormon now-wife had a baby. Mother-in-law approached me from my opinion: Should she ask if father-in-law could bless the baby in church? Did I think that's appropriate? Being what I was when I was devout, I saw nothing wrong with that, and, in fact, that it would be a good thing to expose both child and mother to The Truth. (I'm so embarrassed now.) Baby was never blessed, thank goodness.

Incident 2: Mother-in-law had an never-Mormon tenant in the guest room. The tenant liked coffee. Naturally, the tenant placed her own coffee maker in the kitchen, as her hosts didn't have one and that's where coffee makers go. Mother-in-law explained to me that she told the tenant that if she was going to drink coffee, it would have to be in the privacy of her own room. Coffee maker must remain in the bedroom. Didn't I think that was perfectly reasonable and appropriate? At the time, yes, I did. Now, no. Live your own rules, fine, but don't extend your sense of "morality" onto others.

Incident 3: I had made my break from the church, but no one knew that yet. We were at a family reunion, and mother-in-law hoped that this would be the perfect chance to ask Jack-Mo BIL and his wife to come to church with everyone else. Go as a family, you know. Like there would be only positive pressure to come when the other two dozen people were going, too. She tried to recruit us to help ask them to come. We flat-out told her that we already arranged with them to do something fun on Sunday while everyone else would be at church. That was her first big clue that we had changed. She didn't say anything about it for six months.

Incident 4: Christmas time. She wanted more than anything to ask all of us evil apostate children to join her at church on Christmas day. Just like she had on Incidents 1 & 2, she sought confirmation from a devout member if this would be appropriate. Only this time, I wasn't the devout one, so she asked her daughter, the one we stayed with in Utah. Didn't she think it good to ask everyone to come to church? Was it too much to ask for everyone to be at church together on Christmas Sunday? Is that too big a request? Bless her heart, sister-in-law clearly stated that yes, that would be too much to ask. We didn't go. (I only just realized that I hurt my mother-in-law further by being perfectly willing to go to the non-denominational church with my never-Mormon sister-in-law. But that was on Christmas Eve, not Christmas morning. All the other churches were smart enough to have their services on Christmas Eve.)

Incident 5: Six months after Incident 3. A few days after Incident 4. Mother-in-law decides it's time for The Talk. It was terrible timing, considering we had just left a party because my husband had a migraine. But she wanted us alone, and that was the only time we were. She told us "this" would be hard, but it would be harder for us, since she had The Truth already, and we were just searching. To borrow from SML, Niiiice.

Incident 6: Over the phone, she half-jokingly asks my husband if we were going to church again. "No," he answered simply. She explained that she wanted to be able to joke about it, talk about it. I interpreted that to mean, "I want to be able to joke about your apostasy. But if you joke about my church, I'll kill you." Am I too cynical?

So, yeah, we're a little nervous about what to expect.

13 comments:

Travis Whitney said...

I hope this side of the family understands the boundaries issues you were faced to deal with earlier. Does that side of the family have a lot of kids, where these problems might come up? I fear what you are going through as I know I'll be there some day.

I'm going to be with my entire family on vacation all next week. I'm not sure if I'm going to talk religion to any of them, but I was thinking about talking to my brother about his experiences with not attending church for a long them then going back and thinking about going on a mission. I doubt I'll tell him about my changing beliefs. I haven't decided yet.

Anyway, from the sounds of it, you'll have some interesting stories to tell about your MIL after this. I look forward to hearing about it.

/paranoidfr33k

Sideon said...

Oh my.

If you need a "getaway" that includes two cats, one apostate, an apostate's partner, and an energetic golden retriever... we're in Concord :)

Anonymous said...

Good luck to you. Mormons are so into the church that they don't realize how their "pressure" affects people of other, differing, beliefs. I've always been offended by the pressure and the egregious violations of boundaries practiced by TBMs, even when I was a believer. I think the reason was that I witnessed my own family making everyone around us feel uncomfortable and I naturally empathized with them more closely than understanding "us" and "our shining light."

I usually respond with blatant outbursts of anger laced with profanity. That might not work for you.

from the ashes said...

paranoid- Good luck on that vacation. I find it's pretty hard to get someone alone to talk religion, even ones willing to talk. It took me a year to talk to my BIL who stopped attending. And when we did talk, it was about 1am.

Sideon- Sounds wonderful. Except that cat. Cat allergies here, sorry. We'll meet for coffee or a drink?

cv rick- Yes, boundaries are not recognized. They are totally different, that is, for believers. I just apologized profusely for all the crap I put my never-mo SIL through when I was TBM. Ugh.

Sister Mary Lisa said...

Niiiiice. Heh heh. Good luck with that, my friend. I hope your fears are ungrounded, although I doubt they are. Sigh.

Ujlapana said...

Good luck out there. You seem to handle these things with aplomb, even though it is surely difficult in the moment.

One observation on incident 2: are you faulting your MiL for setting boundaries of her own? If the tenant had been a nudist, would you take the same stance on "live and let live" in the kitchen? (Coincidentally, they're having a big debate on this at FMH right now.)

Rebecca said...

ujlapana - maybe, but as a person who's been a tenant in several family homes, if use of the kitchen is part of the rent I feel I should be able to keep my normal kitchen things in there. And your example is a logical fallacy (yes, I did actually take logic - 2 classes - in college) for a couple of reasons: nudity is not an equivalent of a coffeemaker in this situation, and if the person who owns the house has a problem with nudists he/she would not have rented the room to that person in the first place.

FTA - I so admire how you own up to the embarrassing things you did and thoughts you had while you were a TBM. I don't even like to think about how I was before.

Good luck - It really grates to have people feeling sorry on your behalf. I try to turn it around and feel sorry for THEM for being so deluded, but it doesn't matter - they still feel superior and I just can't muster that amount of arrogance. Grrr.

from the ashes said...

ujlapana- In principle, nudism and the coffee maker in the kitchen are similar--both things the host didn't agree with. But coffee? Come on. That is not even in the same ball park as nudism. A host being offended by seeing a tenant drink coffee is ridiculous, really. It's not hurting anyone. A nudist in my living though? That's different.

Yes, a host has a right to set boundaries in her own home. But if those boundaries interfere with how I want to raise my son, or how I live, then I'll stop staying here. The tenant could have done that too. But that would just be sad if we couldn't learn to stay in the same house, as we are related. I'm therefore willing to put up with some things for the sake of the relationship.

I will, for example, not say anything about them saying dinner prayers in their own home. Even though I think it's idiotic. Even though I know they are praying more often than they used to so they can be good examples for us. I will not ask them to come to brunch with us on Sunday instead of go to church. I will not pressure them to have a coffee with me. I won't even drink beer in their house.

But if they try to push their standards onto me--or worse, onto my son--then we'll have to find a new place to stay.

Ujlapana said...

I won't search the web for this while I'm at work, but I'll wager there are as many nudist as there are active Mormons in the US. So to say nudism and coffee are different is, again, to merely impose your own views on the subject. Neither coffee-morality nor open nudity are mainstream views, but they're certainly valid personal stances. There's an apparent nudist on FLAK--he might object to a landlord forcing his/her moral views on him in the exact same way. I think we're in agreement here on the principle. (Rebecca, the landlord might not know a tenant likes to cook in the buff until it's too late, so I think the comparison is sound.)

If I were TBM, I would object to a coffee maker for a pretty sound reason--it would look like mine. I wouldn't want to "discuss" the coffee-maker every time someone came over, because it's embarrassing and weird. And I wouldn't want someone "weak in the faith" to have their testimony "shaken" by seeing that I was a coffee drinker in secret. (This assumes the visitor doesn't ask, at which point I could explain--but then we're back to the first point, the forced, "oh that, ummm, that's my tenant's....") So I would insist on the coffee maker being elsewhere, not because I don't want to see the tenant drink coffee, but because I don't want people to think that I drink coffee. It's like having Playboys (in labeled brown paper mailing sleeves, so nothing offensive is visible) sitting on your coffee table. "I don't read them, but my painter brings them by and reads them during lunch, so I keep them here for him...." Awkward.

This is the beautiful push and pull of human relationships, I guess. I sense the key issue is whether actions are being done to try and influence you and your family (extra praying, subtle lessons to kids, etc.) or are being done for their own personal edification (praying at a normal rate, going to church, etc.). I completely agree with you that the former feels anywhere from frustrating to infuriating. The problem with Mormonism is that its missionary focus shifts influential efforts from the former to the latter in the mind of the believer. Hence, I am not rude to JW's and the like--they are ignorant of their disrespect.

I don't know your MIL at all, but I sense from having read your entire blog that if anyone can manage to keep a healthy relationship there, it's you!

Sideon said...

I fully promote nudism and coffee. Splendid ideas.

With a little Baileys.

Unknown said...

ujlapana - While arguments by analogy are kind of a judgment call, I think that, in this case, the point is actually not sound. Because I didn't want to argue the point with no way to prove it, I emailed my college logic professor (K. Codell Carter - Ph.D in philosophy from Cornell) and asked him what he thought. This is what he says:

"With respect to the argument, you are exactly right so why not just call it a . . . fallacy of incorrect parallel. That’s basically what you called it, and that is as good a name as any other. A more common name would be false analogy or something like that."

In fairness to you, he did go on to say:

"...fallacies are usually not all or nothing. Generally speaking, an argument is only fallacious if it seems to be stronger than it really is and that, of course, is extremely vague and it depends on how the speaker and the audience feel about a particular argument."

Just so you know that I wasn't talking out of my ass and calling "fallacy!" without knowing what I was talking about (as so many people are prone to do).

FTA - sorry to hijack. You know how certain things just get under your skin and you feel like you MUST set them to rights? Yeah.

Ujlapana said...

Rebecca,

I never thought you were talking out of anywhere south of your neck! I would be most interested to know how my argument was presented to Codell and what his full response was, but I realize that's way off-topic from the original post. You can PM me on FLAK or NOM if you're willing to enlighten me further (or email me: same name at Google's service) and feel bad about thread-jacking. I'd be curious, because I don't see how he's eliminated the moral relativism that exists between cultures, or why the tenant's culture should be given deference by the host's culture in a general sense. I'm fine with making a mistake, but not with failing to learn from it if I have. (Not that I'm admitting the error yet ;-)!)

Anonymous said...

Ugh. I hate family politics. Ours has been reasonably good as of late, but we recently found out that they aren't quite as nice to us when we're not around.